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Capacitor Rigs a short lesson

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Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 13:47:00 - [1] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/04/2008 13:47:30 Originally by: Midas Man with 1 CCCI you have 1000uF which recharges in (100s/1.15) 85s so 1000uF/85s= 11.5uF/s Incorrect. It recharges 11.76470 and not 11.5. Put your own sum into a calculator. 1000/85 = 11.76 Therefore your entire post fails -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:27:00 - [2] Semi = Cap Battery in rig form CCC = Cap recharger in rig form. People use Semi because they cannot do maths, or because they expect to be neuted or have a situation where total cap matter more than recharge. Thats it folks. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:34:00 - [3] Originally by: Midas Man Edited by: Midas Man on 21/04/2008 14:25:05 Edited by: Midas Man on 21/04/2008 14:24:11 Originally by: Sokratesz When you have a shieldbooster consuming 2400 cap every 10 seconds, smartbombs, hardeners and 2 capital shield transporters sucking 300 cap/s each with a total cap (after imps) of 83.6k, you'll see why total cap doesn't matter as much as peak recharge. possibly in a Capital ship with 83.6k an extra 0.26% cap recharge might help out, dunno don't know your recharge time. Never flown a capital ship so not got involved in working out fittings. Taking a Rokh as an example base cap 6000 recharge time 1250. recharge time 4.8 (IIRC peak is about 3x this) peak is 14.4 peak recharge rate. Semi gives 6900 cap, recharge in 1250 Peak is (6900/1250)3 = 16.56 CCC gives 6000 cap, recharge in 1062.5 Peak is (6000/1062.5)3 = 16.94 so we get an extra 0.38 cap every second at peak using a CCC this im sure you can see is negligable it would take ~40 min to recharge the extra 900 cap you get from a Semi. assuming you stay at peak for the full 40 mins. editted to stop my post looking like a quote lol Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:40:00 - [4] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/04/2008 14:41:39 Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Lord WarATron Semi = Cap Battery in rig form CCC = Cap recharger in rig form. People use Semi because they cannot do maths, or because they expect to be neuted or have a situation where total cap matter more than recharge. Thats it folks. Do not try to reinvent the wheel. People use CCC because they don't realise that a Semi gives them virtually the same increase in Recharge ASWELL as a more capacity. Thats it folks LordWarATron knows all look at the evidence he has to prove his arguement You need a 8% Cap implant for a 3 x Semi user to beat a 3 x CCC user. I did not know 8% is "almost the same". My evidence is baised on fact rather than made up assumptions. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:46:00 - [5] Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Lord WarATron Edited by: Lord WarATron on 21/04/2008 14:37:13 Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. And for Battleships/Battlecruisers/Commandships running permatanks, Semi's are not very good at all. And where did these figures come from. hmm hold on I have a counter aguement Rokh + 3 x CCC = 25cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 45cap/sec so obviously CCC's are gimped or did i just make those numbers up (sarcasm for those who couldn't tell) Midas Man, you are just digging a bigger hole for yourself. Every single post in this thread about teaching CCC users a "Lesson" ended up without yourself making simple mistakes. Please argue vs facts. I have given you real numbers and not made up ones. Work forward from there please. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 14:52:00 - [6] Originally by: Lalita Prestoc Originally by: Lord WarATron Rokh + 3 x CCC = 32.6cap/sec Rokh + 3 x Semi = 30.4cap/sec Difference = 2.2cap/sec. Big difference, since the Semi user would need a 8% CAP IMPLANT to beat the 3 x CCC user. And for Battleships/Battlecruisers/Commandships running permatanks, Semi's are not very good at all. Well remember you have to consider the cap increase: Rokh + 3x CCC: 7500 Cap, +32.6 cap/s @ peak. Rokh + 3x SMC: 11407 Cap, +30.4 cap/s @ peak. Takes that extra 2.2 cap/s a while to replace 3907 cap. Cap Amount is irrelevant for the things more people use CCC's for. Where it is relevant, people use Semi's insted. E.G Semi's with a cap booster makes sense for pvp. But for PvE permatanks, its not better than CCC, which was the OP got wrong. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 15:01:00 - [7] Originally by: Midas Man ^^ This approximatly 30 mins assuming you stay at peak Not really, the 3 x CCC user will always be recharging just under 8% faster than the 3 x semi user for as long as he is in the ship regardless of cap levels. If his objective is faster recharge, he uses CCC rigs. If he is a pvp pilot and has a cap booster, then Semi's are better because he has a bigger cap buffer in case of neuts before he needs to rely upon the booster. The mistake you made was assume that Semi's are better than CCC in all situations. Unfortunetly you are proven wrong. PvE permatanks rely on cap, and that is why most players use CCC for pve. It is not because they are stupid, it is because you assumed that just because something is more expensive. Capital ships rely on a certain cap percentage, and if 3 x CCC rigs help them get there just under 8% faster than Semi's, then thats what they do. It is every week that we get someone trying to reinvent the wheel. Just ask youself why people use CCC rigs in permatanks and not semi's? -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Midas Man If someone is fitting for permatank in a BS then they have bigger problems if they require an extra 2.2cap/sec to make the permatank tight come on what is that negligable amount going to run? And then my assuption of cost is valid as the only reason to go for a CCC over a SCM is price. 2.2cap/sec is the same as just under a 8% Cap implant. Anyone can EFT up a setup that puts in a extra damage mod due to having more cap. Remember that some people combine Slot 6 +5% and slot 8 +5% with their CCC II's so they can run extra damage mods on permatanks (like the 4 BCU Permatank Golem setup, which would Fail with SCM II's) You assume people run permatanks on only rigs. This is wrong as they use more than just rigs due to no stacking penelty. Think of Compound intrest vs a fixed amount. Remember - Cap mods are not stacking penalised. It is not 2.2 cap, it is just under 8% of total cap recharge. For example, Abaddon. Base = 21.6/sec 3 x CCC = 34.6/sec 3 x SCM = 32.3/sec Now with 4 Cap recharger II, Base = 51.9/sec 3 x CCC = 84.5/sec 3 x SCM = 78.9/sec Now your 2.2 cap/sec gap has suddenly became 5.6 cap/sec. This gap massivly increases baised upon cap mods. T2 Cap rigs and cap implants make this gap even bigger. 2.2cap may not look useful, but just under 8% Extra cap recharge is. Thats because you are talking about a fixed amount and I am talking about a compound amount, which anyone who fits cap mods is working off. As for SCM's being more useful in more situations than CCC's, I kind of doubt this since I dont see many SCM users at all. In fact, the last SCM guy I met changed to CCC's as soon as he worked out the maths involved. Since I fly all shiptypes including caps, I thought I could use SCM's in a custom pilgrim neut fit, but then relised that ergess rigs are far better. So tell us some sensible uses for SCM's. Something like "Abaddon can fire 1 extra volley before it runs out of cap" is hardly the most valid of reasons. The average shield tank fully fitted only gains a couple of extra boosts in the first few minutes, after that, the CCC setup takes over due to the compound power of cap recharge in typical pve setups. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 16:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Kiki Arnolds EFT-Blaster Mega with 1 LARII running, an inactive MWD, misc hardeners, all lvl 5 skills Base +15.2cap/s recharge, lasts 1M 54s CCCx3 +24.8cap/s peak recharge, lasts 2M 15s SMCx3 +23.1cap/s peak recharge, lasts 3M 19s You'll get more cap/s with CCC than SMC, but unless the CCC gets you to cap stability (or VERY cloese to it) the SMC wins out. There may be some setup that would cause cap injectors to change it, but gaming cap booster usage rates is too complicated for me. Rule of thumb is..... If you use pvp, SMC's are better in setups you use cap booster with, such as pvp blaster mega or pvp Abaddon. CCC's are better in setups that you expect to be fighting for more than a few mins with. -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.21 19:48:00 - [10] Originally by: Midas Man Originally by: Ecky X Let me use a different example. Maelstrom: 5x cap flux, 3x CCC 4429 cap, 128.7s cap recharge > 86.7 cap/s Permaruns an XL SB, 3 hards, and a (named or faction) afterburner. ----- Maelstrom: 5x cap flux, 3x SMC 6735 cap, 208s recharge > 80.9 cap/s Caps out in 6.5 minutes with said setup. ----- You post that sometimes more cap is beneficial. However, you don't mention that if you go below peak, the CCC setup will get back up to peak (with mods off) in half the time. Not to mention you have more cap/s. Maybe its just me but I wouldn't got pvp or pve with the above mentioned fit. First I would drop a shield hardener for a Shield Booster amplifer to tank more Dmg. Also do you need to run an afterburner constantly and if you do how does it affect your tracking and DPS. And if your fitting with AC's an XL SB would struggle to tank the easiest of Lvl 4's. As in previous post I could spend all day plugging in different fits to find a situation where CCC's are better, but are those fits useful and of the few that are, they are for very specific roles. Which brings me back to SCM are more useful in the vast majority of cases. Sigh..... Please post SMC setup where it clearly outclasses Trimarks or CCC rigs and tell us how you plan to use the ship in such a way that the cap recharge rate increase or armour buffer( on pvp blaster ships for example) would not be better than SMC's. Its pointless debating anything else, since you appear to still not relise you were wrong in the Original post and rather than say "opps" you assume everybody else is wrong. -- Billion Isk Mission

Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.22 07:51:00 - [11] Originally by: Durzel Edited by: Durzel on 22/04/2008 07:24:11 Since both CCC and SMCs work on percentages of your existing cap and cap recharge isn't the "right choice" ship dependant? In other words if you have a ship with a big cap and an already low recharge - you'd surely get more benefit from boosting (as a percentage) the total capacity than reducing (by percentage) the recharge. Some quick EFT numbers on a Nightmare (no ship fitting, no implants, all skills level 5): Base ship cap: 7422 1 x SMC II, 2 x SMC I - Total cap: 11779, Recharge time: 866.2 secs, Peak recharge: 38.2 1 x CCC II, 2 x CCC I - Total cap: 7422, Recharge time: 500.6 secs, Peak recharge: 37.1 If you have a setup which you know doesn't permatank anyway (which is presumably likely on a laser boat anyway), and don't intend to go AFK, isn't the higher buffer a better choice? A difference of 1.1/sec recharge isn't going to make a difference in either setup if your total combined cap usage/sec exceeds it. With those numbers I can't really see why CCC's are so favoured? Is it simply because "everyone else uses them therefore they must be right" or is there some higher thinking I'm missing? I wrote a detail list which showed your numbers wrong. However damm forums ate it up. So i am giving you the numbers approx Nightmare: H: 4 x Tach II M: XL Booster II, Amp II, 3 x Hardner II, 2 x Cap recharger II L: Heatsink II, flux II Uses 117 cap/sec approx Permatanks with 3 x CCC or 2 x CCC + 1 x CCC II. Does not permatank with SMC x 3 or SMC II/2xSMC setup. (lats around 6 mins and 20 mins respectivly) 3xCCC > 1 x SMC II + 2 x SMC 3 x CCC gives around 7-8cap/sec approx more than 3 x SMC II on above setup. 1 x CCCII + 2 x CCC gives approx 10-11 cap/sec more than SMCII/2xSMC on above setup 10-11 cap/sec more recharge with CCCI/2xCCC is not "1.1". Remember, CCC's are compound. SMC's are useful whre cap buffer matters, however most of those situations people tend to use cap booster insted and use trimarks or other rigs insted of SMC's. Now can you tell me a situation + ship where people would want to use SMC's over, say, CCC's or Trimarks or any other rigs? -- Billion Isk Mission
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.04.23 15:41:00 - [12] Originally by: Gotrek Gurnisson Originally by: Lord WarATron For example, Abaddon. Base = 21.6/sec 3 x CCC = 34.6/sec 3 x SCM = 32.3/sec Now with 4 Cap recharger II, Base = 51.9/sec 3 x CCC = 84.5/sec 3 x SCM = 78.9/sec If Lord Warratrons figures are correct then the effect of 4 cap recharger II is to modify recharge time by a factor of 0.416 (21.6 / 51.9) I.e. Recharge time descreases by a factor of 0.416 so recharge rate increases by the same factor. Assuming his numbers are correct (and measured in game) then it does look like cap rechargers DONT have stacking penalties, as (0.8)^4 ~ 0.41 modifier. Anyone know a thread confirming they dont affect cap recharge rates? There is no stacking penelty on Cap mods of any type. I can confirm this and so can you by fitting multiple cap mods to ships. This means that insted of a penelty, there is a bonus due to compounding. So where stacking makes each mod worse, compounding makes each mode even better.

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